Showing posts with label Pennine Way. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Pennine Way. Show all posts

Friday, 15 January 2016

Support Crew: The Spine MRT Challenge

Tim approaching Horton-in-Ribblesdale
having come over Pen y Ghent (in background)
and with 'just' 26km to go
I'm sure many of you are aware that my other half, Tim, has just run the The Spine Mountain Rescue Team Challenge to raise awareness for Glossop Mountain Rescue Team. The challenge is 108 miles along the Pennine Way from Edale to Hawes, starting at 7am on Saturday 9th January 2016. Donations are still being accepted so if after reading this you're compelled to put a few quid in the pot - thank you. Everyone's generosity is most appreciated by the team who are all 100% volunteers and receive no payment or help funding their 24/7/365 work.

So if Tim was running the challenge, what was my role? Well, I was the support crew. Me and our van loaded with pretty much all the kit Tim owns and enough food to supply many runners, followed and met up with Tim at (I think) 11 road crossings. I won't bore you with the finer details of where and when, Tim has a much better account of the whole thing from his perspective over on TestedToDestruction.

I did however learn a lot over the weekend. The main one being not to underestimate how hard sleep deprivation affects you, and for how long. I was grabbing the odd 10/15mins of shut eye where I could, but never managed to get a significant chunk of sleep. It took me until about yesterday (Thursday) following the race to just about feel normal.

The only time I got a decent chunk of sleep was when I got stuck in Malham at 5.30am because of the snow... frustrating as I really wanted to get to the next meeting point and sleep there before Tim started up Fountains Fell. But, the snow preventing me from driving was also a relief - I could lay my head on a pillow and zip up the sleeping bag. Sleep did not however come easy as I was feeling guilt being inside in relative warmth while Tim was battling the harsh elements outside, worrying if he was safe, and also keeping one eye on the tracker to ensure he was moving and therefore should be safe. I set multiple alarms so I wouldn't still be snuggled up at midday, and was driving out of Malham at first light.

that porridge tasted amazing in the van at Malham,
waiting for the gritters salt to defrost the roads
The key to being support for a runner is firstly to look after yourself. You are no good if you are hungry, wet or cold. The whole lack of sleep thing took me by surprise, and looking back I should have done a little less socialising with other supporters or mountain rescue chaps at the road crossings and made myself close my eyes. You live and learn though! However, having a few friendly faces to spend some time with while waiting at road crossings was brilliant - Jacquie and Jason at the Isle of Sky road took my mind off what was to come over the next 30-odd hours wonderfully. And the Glossop Mountain Rescue Team members at Cowling were entertaining as always as we waiting in the torrential rain and darkness by the roadside.

When your runner approaches a meet point you need to be ready to provide whatever they need....and you need to predict what those things may be. Some of the uncertainty of this is removed by chatting through the racing and nutrition strategy before, and checking the weather carefully to ensure additional layers or changes of clothes are close to hand.

One of the major challenges I faced was drying kit out, especially Tim's gloves. There was one point where I was literally sitting in the van in a t-shirt, sweating from the heaters being on full blast with newspaper stuffed gloves sitting on top of the dashboard heaters. The back of the van was like a laundry with things pegged up and draped over anything and everything. Thankfully Tim owns plenty of spare kit - base layers and buffs especially. The glove situation was more critical with (I think) only 3 main pairs to be worn or dried out. No-one could have predicted the incredible amounts of water that fell out of the sky. Every time I got out of the van I got drenched. I went through 2 sets of waterproofs and developed a system of drying them off with a towel as I jumped in the van, then finding somewhere to hang the towel!

food, drink and (out of sight) clothes ready to grab
Vehicle choice - I keep saying now I'll never support again without a camper van. And one with a toilet. With the volume of rain falling I reckon I spent several hours inside the van just holding on...waiting for a slight break in the downpour to nip out and go to the loo. Most of the road crossings are isolated and far from an indoor toilet and even with stops at places on the driving sections, you can't predict when you need to go!

Our van is great if the weather isn't horrendous. Getting from the drivers seat to the back has to be done outside - there's no way to climb over the seats. I did wonder at times if the car would have been a better choice. But to have a camper with easy access, one you can brew up in without fear of gassing yourself because you can't open the door or windows otherwise you'll drench the inside with floods of rain water...next time!

Road out of Malham at 8am Sunday morning
Whatever vehicle you do choose, if the event is in winter or if winter weather is a possibility then winter tyres are an absolute must. We have them on our van and I seriously reckon they saved me on the flooded roads (there's still plenty of floods around the Gargrave area) and especially on the road from Malham Tarn back down past the cove to the village in the 2" of snow I had to scarily contend with. If winter weather is likely, know how to drive in it. I had to engine break all the way down that road, cornering on the steep twisty road too every ounce of concentration to take the best lines (motorbike training coming in very handy there). It might sound like I was reckless going up the road in the first place but it was only raining lightly as I left Tim on the edge of the village and the last forecast I'd seen only a few hours prior hadn't shown snow coming. Within 20mins there was 2" on the floor and as Tim's blog explains, that was soon over a foot deep.

Driving routes - I knew quite a lot of the roads and routes I'd be driving but not all. I spent a bit of time at one early meeting point to write out clear driving directions for the dark overnight sections. This was incredibly useful as my brain fogged with the lack of sleep and driving stints were powered with shots of espresso. I also used the satmap thing on my phone; this proved so vital on the dark tiny lanes after I left Cowling, all the way up to Malham. Signal was a bit dodgy at times but I didn't make any nav errors thankfully. It was almost comforting to have a 'voice' speak to me, directing me to 'turn left in 300m'....for the left turn road to appear which would otherwise have easily been missed in the now familiar torrential downpours.

Hailstones like massive marbles on the
Horton-in-Ribblesdale to Hawes section
Tracker - this race is one of many that uses the Open Tracking gps trackers. What an amazing bit of kit. Tim basically carries a small device on his rucksack which sends a signal and all us armchair followers see his 'dot' move along the map. It isn't without fault - lack of signal and slow loading on my mobile phone was frustrating - but it really meant I knew (most of the time) when he was closing in on meet points. Vital to get the kettle on, me togged up in waterproofs and on the dark sections I could set the powerful torch on strobe mode so he'd know exactly where I was as he approached. If you're planning to do any long challenge then get a tracker - vital for support crew in my opinion. Open Tracking hire them out at minimal cost.

Back up plans - we'd discussed the what-ifs around whether I could reach various points and how Tim may need to be self-sufficient should I not be parked where we'd planned. Absolutely essential to go over various scenarios. Imagine if he'd have to pull out because of a puncture on the van that meant his food/clothes weren't delivered to him on time. Tim carried enough food and gear to do the whole thing without me were it necessary. No-one however could predict the volume of rain that meant the glove changes would literally save him and ensure he completed the race.

So what would I do differently? 

  • Campervan with toilet and winter tyres. Anything overnight requires a campervan. 
  • Sleep more.
  • Probably eat better myself. I wasn't hungry and had enough to eat, but a hot meal on Saturday evening would have been much better than constant snacking.
  • Book a room at the end of the challenge and stay over? The drive home was slow because I was so tired. It was however a relief to be looking after Tim in our own home. I'm not sure the journey home the following day would have been any better for him.
  • Have more *insert favorite food of the runners choice* (in Tim's case, tangfastics). We had loads, and loads of other foods Tim thought he would eat. But on long journeys such as he did you get to have one bit of food that worked...we had plenty of cold pizza which he was stomaching well but I was concerned the tangfastics would run out. All unpredictable as you never know what the runner is going to favour, so maybe knowing where you can buy certain things, or indeed where the nearest shops are on route and when they're open would be a good bit of info to have to hand.
  • Perhaps have two people support...then the whole lack of sleep thing can be removed and you can work in shifts. You'd also have company - some of the places I stopped were very isolated and while I didn't feel threatened, it would have helped the hours pass more pleasantly with someone to chat to.

Would I be support crew again?
1st prize in the Spine MRT Challenger category,
4th overall in the race, and he completed the
108 miles virtually non-stop in 32hrs 10mins
I'm awesomely proud of my bloke. 
Absolutely. In fact I'm already signed up for some of the mountain rescue chaps that are registering for this one next year! There is something extremely rewarding about ensuring a competitors needs are tended to. I've supported Tim and friends on a few long challenges previously, and also for some of my personal training clients. Being there for them with food, water, clothes etc gives me a buzz. I know what it feels like on a long run to see a friendly face and have a bit of nourishment thrown your way. It's priceless, and it makes me smile.

Don't forget you can still donate to Glossop Mountain Rescue Team - here's a link to their JustGiving page.


Saturday, 19 September 2015

Ultra Challenge on the Pennine Way

Our holiday was never going to be a typical sit-on-the-beach-and-relax type. That's just not us. After mulling over a few options what to do Tim and I decided to pack light and head north on a running holiday along a section of the Pennine Way. Tim is running the Spine Challenger Mountain Rescue race in January (108 miles non-stop in 60 hours or less) next year so we decided to recce a decent section of route. We started at Wessenden Head (thanks for the lift Caity) and made our way to Horton In Ribblesdale.

Our pace was going to be steady (120km over 4 days), and a good test physically and mentally for me. I've never got close to running that distance in a week (I think 65km was my max to date). But I was up for the challenge and determined to do it. So far this year I've pushed myself to complete my first ever marathon (the Howgills 26 trail marathon in May) and first ever ultra race (the Long Tour of Bradwell in August). These four days would double the distance I've ever done in four days and get me out running around 30km on consecutive days. Oh, and to be clear, when I say running, I obviously mean running mixed in with walking.

Day 1: Wessenden Head to Mankinholes
32.2km - 545m ascent - 5hrs 3mins
The weather was pretty grim as we were dropped off at the road side. Proper claggy and raining. So with waterproofs on we got going. The forecast was for mixed weather and I only hoped it wouldn't be this damp all week. There was never a thought of curtailing the trip, just fingers crossed for decent drying facilities! The easy path down to Wessenden Reservoir soon gave way to a steep down and up onto moorland. Navigation was pretty straight forward even on unfamiliar ground for us, and with the clag drastically reducing visibility. It's fair to say we didn't see much on this day. The route crosses a few major roads, one of which had a very tempting smell of cooking bacon but so early in the day we resisted and pushed on. Before long we were at the M62 crossing, and rather dauntingly only half a bridge visible.

where's the rest of the bridge?

It wasn't until we reached the edge approaching Stoodley Pike that the cloud lifted a little and we could make out Mankinholes below and our first overnight stop.
Tim approaching Stoodley Pike monument

It was still really early, maybe around noon, so we pushed on along the ridge to the monument and had a snack. We added a few kilometres on along the Pennine Way so we could avoid the big climb back to the ridge in the morning. The rest of the day was spent having brews at the hostel, drying our clothes and have a decent meal at the local pub, Top Brink.

I was nicely surprised at how good I felt after the distance, and importantly my first time running with a decently packed rucksack. No matter how light you pack there's still going to be a good amount of weight with spare clothes, extra warm running kit, water and food. At the start of the day my pack had been 6kg - so easily 3kg more than I'd run with before.

Day 2: Mankinholes to Cowling
33.3km - 1107m ascent - 6hrs 18mins
After a lot of rain overnight it was good to start off dry. Not so on the feet, the ground was sodden. The day was a set of decent ascents and descents, and it seemed to be that every time I looked back where we'd come from the monument at Stoodley Pike it was gradually shrinking, but still dominant on the skyline. I imagine going the other way that the monument taunts your southward progress. The reservoirs along the way make good features to track your progress. The day stayed dry and blustery, but warm enough to run in t-shirts interspersed with arm warmers being pulled on. The skies were dramatic and it was really enjoyable falling into a good rhythm of running and walking.




We stayed in a B&B and had a super meal at the local pub, Bay Horse. It would have been good to stay for the quiz, the landlord was bound to be a great character, but we had an early start planned so retired early, safe in the knowledge that our socks had been washed and were being dried by the B&B owners - bonus!

Day 3: Cowling to Malham
29km - 844m ascent - 4hrs 56mins
Bags packed, arm warmers on to combat the cooler morning and we were on our way. We'd been told that today promised a good few ups and downs early on, then easy running into Malham. That was about right. There was a superb inversion in the valleys to our east. The grass under foot was damp and in places muddy from all the cattle.


glorious skies and rolling hills

After the summit at Pinhaw the day was indeed on fairly rolling land. Looking at the profile it does however hide the fact that we were gradually gaining height all the way to Malham. That might have contributed to me starting to feel the distance in my legs and the pace slowing.

Pinhaw trig point

We had a nice relaxing afternoon around the village and hostel and I resisted coming away from the pub with a bundle of kittens.



Day 4: Malham to Horton In Ribblesdale
24.6km - 876m ascent - 3hrs 49mins
Final bag pack of the week. All the dry bags and stuffing things into the rucksack had fallen into a system and it seemed like we were on the way for the last day before we could blink. The route north to Malham Cove was nicely straight forward, as you'd imagine with it only being about a mile from the village. A popular tourist spot, but at 8am on a Thursday we had the path virtually to ourselves.

early start so sun not yet reaching Malham Cove

Two big hills now stood between us and the finish. Fountains Fell and Pen-y-ghent. I'd start to actually believe I could do this four day run trip yesterday, but now reality was sinking in. The limestone paving on top of Malham Cove took some careful negotiating, it would be easy to trip and fall; thankfully the rocks were dry. After Ing Scar we were soon making steady progress around Malham Tarn and across to the ascent of Fountains Fell. The route doesn't actually take you to the summit of this hill, rather it goes around the end of it and down to the road. Pen-y-ghent came into view early in the day but as we reached the high point on Fountains it really dominated the skyline.

Pen-y-ghent from Fountains Fell
Approaching Pen-y-ghent from Dale Head

The weather was forecast to be dry until around 1pm and over the morning the cloud was encroaching from the south. That along with a train to catch at 1.24pm gave us a good sense of purpose to continually putting one foot in front of the other. I was really excited to be climbing up the final hill of the trip, and now well into the realms of building mental strength. My body was doing fine as long as I ignored the toe pain, the quad discomfort and the tightness in my calves. Oh, and the sore bits on my back where my bra and rucksack decided to rub. There's bound to be some form of pain on a long trip, I now needed to push on and ignore it. Nothing was so bad to stop me, but I did feel the need to apologise for my moaning to Tim. He was very patient!

Onwards and upwards (and up some big steps towards the top), and finally we made it to the trig point and superb views of the hills beyond and down to Horton. Now it was just down down down (and more ignoring of that toe pain!).

final section climbing up onto Pen-y-ghent

Final trig point of the trip....Pen-y-ghent

We pulled into the village around 12noon and enjoyed a lunch in the cafe then wandered to the train station for the journey home. What a superb trip. 120km and 3371m of ascent in 16hrs 31mins, or thereabouts. Not really an ultra in terms of a single event, but certainly my biggest week for distance by a long way and consecutive running days. I'll be back for more.

Key learning points:

  • we packed really well, only two things in my bag went unused (peaked cap and waterproof over-mitts) and both would have been used if the weather was worse
  • one hostel pillow is never enough
  • a good drying room is very welcomed (Malham wins the gold star on this trip)
  • you can do more than you think you are capable of
  • 30km no longer feels like a long way, especially when you share the journey with your best friend
  • using two different scales of maps for navigating is useful at times


Sunday, 1 June 2014

Bleaklow Wreck Run

Sunshine and a warm gentle breeze greeted us for today's run across Bleaklow to the B29 Superfortress plane wreck. It was a superb day to be out fell running, and I think you'll agree the photographs speak for themselves.

Doctors Gate Culvert

Running up to Higher Shelf Stones
At Higher Shelf Stones trig point
Higher Shelf Stones trig point
Higher Shelf Stones trig point with Glossop way down below us
part of the Superfortress wreckage
Cloudberries galore on the moor
Superfortress wreckage
Returning along Crooked Clough
Final section back down Doctors Gate Culvert

Great running from everyone today, including one lady who was out on her very first fell run - super effort.


Monday, 2 January 2012

Brilliantly Bogtastic

I took my mudclaws out for a bog bashing session today. What I hadn't bargained on was icy conditions underfoot! But then Bleaklow is quite high up, and the wind was pretty chilly. With Montane smock and gloves on I set off....waving my lift (Tim & John+dog) goodbye as they headed onto Kinder. My route was northwards.

Icicles, bog and a bit of snow
There were a few places where the paving slabs along the Pennine Way were of no use whatsoever....ice on them making it more dangerous than bog trotting at the side. Sorry conservationists...I applaud your work (and do normally stick to the paves) but today it just wasn't safe in mudclaws to teeter along them. I turned West and across to Hern Stones - wanting to check out the trod between there and the Wain Stones. I swear I saw two walkers heading South towards Hern...never saw them again though so perhaps a bog ate them.

Random stones close to the Wain Stones...you can't quite see the ice on that bog....my feet certainly knew it was cold up there as they broke through countless ice covered bogs!
The kissing Wain Stones which offered little shelter from the blustery wind
Here's me somewhere on Bleaklow....near Wain Stones!
From Wain Stones I picked up the shooters track curving round in a vaguely Northwesterly direction to John Track Well. It was this trod that forced me become more adjusted to bog running / surfing / hopping. It's a decent trod but in such wet conditions many places are either flowing river-like or calf deep bogs. After a "hello" to 2 walkers having a picnic on the stones marking my point to head west I picked up the trod across to Torside and onwards to Glossop Low. I noticed a small trod up onto Torside, paused, then left that one for another day knowing I was already going to be out 1.5hrs+ - enough for my training today.

Here's the view looking back towards Torside, with James Thorn being the high point just right of centre.
The path from John Track Well to Glossop Low is pretty much one gigantic bog....interspersed with a few wooden board aimed at making the crossings easier. However, today they had ice on them, so their natural greasy slippery tendencies were exacerbated and left me no choice but to avoid them completely - with the exception of a couple that were crossed in comedic tottering fashion.  I've heather bashed across this area before and that isn't a great deal easier so bogs and board dodging were called for.

All these bogs I was deliberately (yes you read that right - I'm working on confident foot work) and mostly without choice bashing through were not doing any favours to my feet - they'd been cold since somewhere on the Pennine Way, and I was wishing I'd opted for my sealskin socks rather than just thick socks. It did have one advantage - it meant I was determined not to stop or they'd just go numb, at least while moving there was some chance they'd warm up. I can gauge the temperature level by how soon my gloves come off....today I kept them on for the entirety of the run - hence it was chilly.

Cock Hill Trig Point looking back towards Torside and John Track Well
At this point was feeling good, my feet had stopped being cold - perhaps they were just numb so I couldn't feel them. I ran down past the plantations and into Old Glossop feeling pretty good. I've not run this distance or duration before so I was pleased I was keeping a good pace. I know most of the run was downhill, but on the terrain it doesn't always feel easy!

Mudclaws post-run...somehow they've managed to partially clean themselves - a miracle. The double knots are interesting to undo with cold hands when all you want is to be in the hot shower!!

I ran with my osprey 5.5 rucksack today because I wanted to carry a few extra bits of warm clothes plus a full map. I can't carry the map in my bumbag (race elite 2) and didn't fancy grasping onto the map for the duration causing my hand to ache. It's niggles like that which start to annoy me after a while. What did bother me a little was the rucksack. I've not had this problem before....I just couldn't get it to sit tightly on my back no matter what combination of strap tightening and loosening I did. It always felt like it was riding up and down - perhaps it was the water bottle I had in it, instead of the water bladder? When running the waist strap rides up, however tight I have it around my pelvic bone so I normally just tighten the shoulder straps and it sits comfortably. I'll try the water bladder next time, see how that goes on a long run.

Here's my Garmin Track if you're interested. I'm very pleased with 12km in 1hr 45mins - think that's my longest duration on the fells to date.




Sunday, 28 August 2011

Bog Bashing

With friends visiting at the weekend and the weather not dry enough to climb the running option was set in motion. Now where to go? I actually didn't want to go running. With Cor being here and her desire to do a route that didn't end up wrecking her with the 3 boys I didn't have much choice. To actually get out and run was a good choice. I had fun. The boys were off up James Thorn-Over Exposed-Shelf Benches-Dog Rock-Cock Hill. Too far and they'd run too fast for us. I didn't fancy a great uphill slog. I wanted to run. And be in the hills without being wrecked when I got up there. So we drove to the summit of the Snake Pass....had a tactical pause while the garmin got signal (aka dodging a heavy rain shower)...then ran along the Pennine Way northwards before cutting left up to 621 Trig Point. We'd turned a little earlier than the nice trod, but it was easy going, and we picked up the trod on the west side of the stream without losing any height.

A trot...walk....jog....and we're at the trig point. Quite windy too. There was a short run section where feet placement had to be done on an angle to hit the spot you were aiming for. Any lack of concentration and your foot would have been blown sideways!  We reckon that if we head a little further west we might get a glimpse of the boys heading up hill....and we do.

Looking south westwards...white dot is where the boys are....
There's only a short wait sitting on a blustery outcrop til the boys are with us. A brief discussion and they slightly alter their route so they run with us to Hern Stones....bog bashing all the way! There's another brief pause as we get to the plane wreck of Over Exposed - then we're off again.

I'm pushing my pace on this section a little. It's interesting when running with other people what happens to your pace. With Cor I was certainly being pushed faster than I probably would have on the trod, and now, with the boys, I'm keen to see just how much I can keep up. There's no way I can keep up....so it's more like seeing how far behind I will be when they get to the stones, even though I know Tim isn't pushing himself to be quick. The ground is pretty wet, lots of mini-streams and marshy bits to cross. It's very liberating running over them, not knowing quite how deep your feet are going to sink in. The boggy bits are fun too....squelching down and up the peat tufts...keeping up a decent speed seems to work best, go too slow and you sink in further and get stuck more. There's also a bit of skill in choosing a good line down and up the bogs....not so much down, but you need to have your exit on the far side sorted or, as I did in one place, you come face to face with peat bog that is too steep and slightly over hanging. Then you're back to a walking pace and slipping around and back towards the bottom if your not quick enough. All good fun. I manage to get to Hern Stones relatively unscathed...muddy gloves, but then you're not really trying if you don't fall over. Just ask Tim if you don't believe me.

We regroup and have a brief pause at Hern Stones for a chunk of kendle mint cake...mmmmm.....and then the boys are heading northwards to Wain Stones while we turn east and back to the Pennine Way. The rain is holding off, but the clouds look threatening. I give Tim my spare kendle mint cake as the boys are more likely to need it than us. We soon pick up the paved path and turn south, heading back to the car. The run is mostly easy going under foot now, a few rocky bits that need careful foot placement but a mostly downhill run back to the car with just a blustery wind to contend with. With the increase in water up on Bleaklow the path is not so easy to pick out in paces as it weaves in and out of the bogs - there's a lot of weaving and crossing the river. I'm sure with practice you can just run down the river. I'll add that to my things to learn about fell running. Something I'm sure will be very handy as we head towards autumn and winter.

I feel determined to keep a decent pace up, even with the wind blowing straight into my face. I know that if I was out here alone today I would be having a few walk breaks, blaming the wind and my crappy lungs for needing a break. But, I keep a steady rhythm is kept as we pass a few groups of walkers....onwards, splashing through the puddles without a care now - feet are wet so it doesn't matter at all. I even see Cor not totally avoiding the puddles....(think she was secretly enjoying it)!

For stats geeks here's the garmin track. Do ignore the max HR - that has to be a garmin blip!

Back at the house we've just had time to have a drink and shower, stretch a little and then the boys are back. I'm really happy with the Roclites...as long as the laces are done up tight enough (so you don't get them sucked off in a bog) they are great. They don't hold the water, the grip is good, they're light and to be honest, I can hardly tell I'm wearing them. Here's our shoes drying out....all INVO8's!


The run was great. Running with friends is good. I seems to take the pressure off monitoring pace, being vaguely anxious about how far or how fast you're running, and it's a good laugh when you're negotiating the bogs, wondering who'll be the first to face plant or sink in a deep one.  Thanks for getting me out there Cor, a decent 7.58km run in about an hour. Good times.

Saturday, 6 August 2011

Saturday stroll

Out with family today for a short stroll up on Bleaklow. Parked at the top of Snake Pass and ambled in a northerly direction on the Pennine Way until reaching the point where you can get to Hern Stones along a small trod. Brief stop there in the shelter of the rocks to have a bite to eat and to find the geocache which is stashed not too far away, then headed southwards to the plane wreck of Over Exposed and continued the few metres to 621 Trig Point overlooking Doctors Gate, Crooked Clough and Shelf Moor. I bagged another geocache then it was off on the trod eastwards back to the Pennine Way. If I was alone or just with Zephr I would have headed to the eastern edge of Crooked Clough, past the waterfall, but a better path was needed today. All totalled to about 7.5km in about 3hours - a slow pace, good to be getting the map out noting various local features etc.
The weather was kind to us, claggy but dry, just the odd few rain drops. Nicely warm, only needed icebreaker on most of the time.